Elza Gubanova & Leon Seidel

Micky

I’m really looking forward to this conversation with you, Elza and Leon. I first learned about you both, and your space, Forum Neun, at the beginning of last year, when you started regularly uploading your Emergency Parties to the archive. I had heard about the space through friends before that as well.

It took me a while to finally visit, and then I came to see Temptation of a Tear. I was really impressed, the space was shining. We’ll get to the physical space, but could you each talk a bit about your backgrounds and how you ended up in Leipzig?

Elza

I am from Odesa, Ukraine where I studied at the Architectural Academy in the fine arts faculty for one year while I was already doing my photography. Then I understood that it was not what I expected. I had a vivid feeling that somewhere else it could be different. I left Ukraine with the idea that I wanted to get a better education, study the things I really wanted to do, and then come back and work there.

So I came to Leipzig and started to study at the HGB.

Micky

Which class are you in there?

Elza

I started in the photography department, that’s how Leon and I met; we studied together. Along the way, we switched to the installation class of Joachim Blank and Anna Raczyńska. For the past two years, we’ve been in Clemens von Wedemeyer’s class, Expanded Cinema.

Micky

And what about you, Leon? How did you come to Leipzig?

Leon

I arrived in 2014, completely randomly. There was a flood in Bavaria, where I grew up in a small town. I had visited friends in Berlin and tried to get back home, but I ended up in Leipzig and had to wait for about ten hours, so I checked it out here.

I had finished my education and thought, “Okay, why not move to Leipzig?” I applied to HGB but got rejected. So I became a freelancer, which I still am, doing SEO for e-commerce. I also became a sound designer as a hobby. Then I met people from HGB, started collaborating on installations, and made some sound designs for VR installations. That’s when I got intrigued by studying again after years of going in a different direction. Eventually, I was accepted for photography.

Micky

I’m also really interested in both of your artistic practices, maybe you can speak a bit more about them.

Elza

I had a very strong aversion toward photography after two years in the photography class. I felt an urge to change something and move away from the image, so I spent one year in the installation class, which really helped me start thinking about space and curatorial practice as well.

At some point, however, I realised that I also had to accept the medium through which I work. This will always be image-based, and that's what I'm interested in. Film feels like the most suitable medium for me because it’s time- and narration-based, yet still about image composition.

Micky

Leon, can you talk about how you work together within these art forms?

Leon

I also became obsessed with photography, especially during the pandemic. It was the best way for me to get outside, take photos and engage with my surroundings. It was more about getting to know the city and the region. At some point, I realised that Leipzig, being part of the former East, had a completely different history. Photography became a tool to help me engage with that history.

For example, I was really fascinated by the building sites all over Leipzig. Some were enormous and, at certain times of day, they resembled mountain landscapes. I became fascinated with photographing them, imagining them as the "Saxonian Mountains".

It was a kind of dreaming, but it was also a way of acknowledging that I was an outsider and that it would take me a long time to understand where I was. I used photography to try to understand this place. Then I visited the coal regions around Leipzig, took photos there and conducted lots of interviews with farmers and people who worked in industry back in the GDR. They told me how their region and their work had changed, and how industrialisation and deindustrialisation had altered the landscape.

Micky

It’s like the narration you were just describing, Elza.

Leon

For me, observing reality is always the most interesting thing as a starting point, whether that's documenting it or trying to narrate it in a more fictional way. I think I partially switched to film because I realised that I could work with sound, too. I’ve been a musician for a long time and initially found it fascinating to work with recordings of spaces. I find it exciting to layer imagery over the sounds of the spaces I filmed, or to use sound as narration by juxtaposition.

Elza

When you were talking about your obsession with photography earlier, I was reminded of my own. For me, photography was a way of processing my coming of age. I was obsessed with taking pictures, especially of my female friends. I have always been attracted to the women in my life.

Two years ago, I made a short film about an elderly group of women in a small town near Kyiv who meet daily to make camouflage nets. I was interested in how different age groups show resistance in the context of war. This group of retired women have found a sense of purpose in contributing to the cause.

I keep returning to these female figures. When I was a teenager, I started working with photography also as a way of resisting a certain gaze in Ukraine's strongly patriarchal society. My female friends and I would go to public places and take photos.

This was a very liberating and bodily practice, and that’s where my interest in understanding what it means to be female began.

Micky

I want to move on to talk a little bit about the Óstov Collective, which you co-founded. When did it start?

Elza

It started in 2022, basically as a reaction to the Russian invasion. It’s also how our curatorial practice emerged, because we all felt really speechless. I felt speechless in my own practice, and then I had the feeling that our task was to become a platform for someone else, to be a bridge, because we were already here.

Leon

It was a support platform, but also cultural education in a way. With our first projects, we tried to support artists in Ukraine by selling their prints. We printed their works and sold them in Leipzig, then donated the money.

Right at the beginning of the invasion, we also had a project at HGB where we invited various cultural workers and artists from Ukraine, such as Masha Isserlis or Nikita Kadan, to discuss artistic practices during times of war and crisis. Some of them were already in Germany and others were or still are in Ukraine.

Elza

At that time, there was a need and a sense of urgency to act quickly and do things that we had never done before. We had never organised any panels before. We also criticised the fact that there were no exhibitions of Ukrainian artists in Leipzig. So we organised one — our first real curatorial project. As far as we know, we were the first to organise a large group exhibition featuring Ukrainian artists in Leipzig.

Leon

Which is actually insane. But I think the state of emergency has created a kind of boldness: not being afraid, just asking for spaces, and doing things without overthinking. Like when we interviewed Nikita Kadan. I was like, 'Oh my God, Kadan,' but Elza wrote him an email and he agreed. The interview was great and really intense.

Elza

He was in a basement hiding from bombings while we had the interview.

Leon

It was crazy, but it also gave us confidence. Why hesitate? In a state of emergency, it doesn't make sense. That’s how this collaborative approach became part of our artistic practice. It felt strange to only show our own work, especially from here. It made more sense to team up, collaborate, and provide a platform for others.

We created a sound installation, which was our first collective piece. We thought, 'There’s already an overflow of imagery. What if we work with sound instead?' We put out an open call for people in Ukraine to send us phone recordings. Over the years, this has become an archive, but the initial piece was essentially a composition of those recordings, telling the stories of individuals experiencing war. Sound is also far more imaginative than imagery.

Micky

Are those accessible somewhere online?

Elza

We’re still trying to find the best way to present them as an archive. Each time we exhibited the piece, we altered the installation. Leon composed a new version each time because the circumstances and realities were changing, and the sound archive was growing. It was interesting to see how a narrative could be built with sound. In 2023, our collective won the Bundespreis für Kunststudierende (Federal Award for Art Students).

For the award exhibition at the Bundeskunsthalle in Bonn, we created a new version of the installation that included, for example, recordings from demonstrations in Berlin and from the front lines in Ukraine.Because By then, the diaspora had formed and more people we know went to the army. The installation was completely different to the one at the beginning.

Leon also conducted a series of interviews in Ukraine about people’s sonic experiences. In big cities that are not on the frontline, you don't always see the war, but you hear it. You really develop an attunement to the acoustic landscape when you’re there.

It may sound strange, but you can be outside, hear an explosion and immediately identify what type it is and whether you need to take shelter. This happened to both of us many times. We would be sitting with friends, hear a very loud explosion and know, 'OK, that's our air defence,' so we wouldn't need to run. It's like learning a language, the language of war sounds.

Micky

And from forming that collective work, it sounds like it, as you said, built confidence to take space. Then you started Forum Neun as a physical space. I’m excited to learn more about that. What was your original intention for opening Forum Neun?

Leon

I think we were tired of always having to find spaces in which to work. There simply isn't enough freedom when you always have to find a place to exhibit and realise projects.

Micky

So, how did you get that space?

Leon

We were invited to hold an exhibition at AS_EM, so we talked to Lucas, who runs the space. He was about to move out, and it turned out that I actually knew the owner. Fortunately, I still had his email address, so I wrote to him. We met and he agreed to rent us the larger space next door on quite good terms.

Micky

When was that?

Elza

We opened in mid-October 2024. Our aim was to continue our collaborative practice, showcasing Eastern European artists, based on the network we have built up over the years. This was our main focus.

Leon

We didn’t want to create another echo chamber. Our aim was to showcase international artists from Eastern Europe and beyond, bringing people together to encourage exchange and foster new communities.

Elza

It was very frustrating because we noticed a vacuum forming within institutions. There was a time when lots of funding was available for Ukrainian artists , but then it stopped. We really experienced the economic interests within these institutions. We realised that this wasn’t the way we wanted to work curatorially, and that we did not want to become overly dependent on this specific funding. We started looking for similarities and differences, and considering how to bring works by Ukrainian artists, as well as other international and Leipzig-based artists, into the same space and put them in dialogue.

Micky

How do your art practices and the collective work you’ve done inform the curatorial process?

Elza

Today, we discussed how all our curatorial projects are connected to our artistic practice. We mostly take our shared fields of interest and works as a starting point, expanding them within our curatorial practice.

We are approaching all the aspects of the curatorial process as artists, including hosting, inviting and mediating. We collaborate with others and explore different formats together. I see this as a valuable opportunity to learn from each other and the process. For me, organising a screening programme or a panel discussion also feels like artistic practice. This is especially true when creating a scenography or choreography for an event. We are very critical viewers; that's why we care so much about the viewer's experience.

Probably we also work curatorially because we want to fill a certain subjective gap in Leipzig's cultural landscape. If we were living in another city, perhaps we would host completely different exhibitions and programmes.

Leon

Why do something yourself when someone else has already done fantastic artistic work? You can connect with people, invite them to collaborate with you, and present something together. Ultimately, it's still an exhibition, but we also perceive it as a collaborative installation. The space becomes a complete installation created with the artists, graphic designers and others we invited to collaborate. Everyone contributes to the installation and the experience. It's always also about the collective experience: people gather, hang out, have conversations and meet someone new.

Micky

I really liked, Elza, how you said that moving into the installation class made you think about space, and that immediately sparks curation: expanding beyond your piece to the entire room, the people in it, and who you invite. “Hosted occasions”, a term from former HGB professor Isabel Lewis, is really what this can be as an art form.

Elza

Yes, that's very beautiful. events or exhibitions with contributions by Ukrainian artists usually attracted Ukrainians, but we wanted to create a 'forum', a place for exchange. We've always wanted to bring different groups of people together. When you invite a DJ collective from South America and Ukrainians to cook, for example, those bubbles already meet. Suddenly, you have lots of people from different backgrounds in one space. For me, that was the most beautiful thing. It's about bringing different international people together, people who don't necessarily belong to the same bubble but in the end also share the same struggles.

That’s why we’re interested in curation: learning how to be a host and bring people together. We’re very far from any hierarchy of “I’m the curator”. It's always about the shared experience. That’s why I also see it as part of our artistic practice.

Leon

Sometimes, artists were even a bit irritated by how much freedom we provided. Of course, we have a vision, but we really like sharing this freedom and creating an environment where we can learn from each other's ideas, approaches and methods.

Micky

Maybe that’s because it isn’t typical in a traditional gallery. The room had a bit of a white-cube look, so from the outside you might still get a traditional feeling. But from what you’ve described, it’s interesting how you break that down and invite more people in. So who was showing up at Forum Neun as the audience, and who did you want to reach?

Elza

For our first project, 'It's a Celebration', we looked at the meaning of opening a space. Although it is always a celebratory moment, it was important for us to consider the social and political context. The exhibition's theme was therefore celebration in times of war and crisis. Many people participated, and it was wonderful.

We had a reader which shared personal stories about celebrations written by friends from Ukraine, as well as a huge table filled with unusual foods that I had prepared with Lesia Hudz, an artist and friend of ours who had come from Hamburg. We spent hours cutting radishes and so on. At the entrance, there was a bar, and on the opposite wall, there was a two-channel video work by the Ukrainian duo Yarema Malashchuk and Roman Khimey. They filmed people clubbing in Kyiv after the Maidan Revolution and during the Russian invasion. They were essentially dancing with everyone at Forum Neun simultaneously.

In retrospect, there’s a saying in Ukrainian: 'The way you name the ship is the way it will float.' I think celebrating in times of war and crisis became the essence of Forum Neun. We did one project with funding and were very optimistic: 'We'll manage the money somehow; let's go.'

Then we had no money at all, but still had to keep the place going and pay the rent. We started organising Emergency Parties, which were a continuation of that first project — celebrating in times of war and crisis.

Micky

Did that sustain you for a while? Did you find support during that time?

Leon

Yes, because of our collaborative approach, we realised how big our network is and how many friends wanted to support us. It became a kind of community space. We were especially interested in Leipzig’s international and migrant audience, so it made sense that they would come. We had invited many artists who weren’t originally from Germany or based in Leipzig and we also started collaborating with the South American DJ collective Aspora. They were extremely supportive at that time, and we are very grateful for their help and fantastic music.

They brought a lot of people, and it was surprising how international our community actually became. I saw many people I had never seen before. Some came simply because they thought it was the best place to meet, enjoy a drink, music and art at the same time.

Elza

We were always working behind the bar. At an exhibition, you usually see the curator busy or engaged in an important conversation. But we would be at the bar, and people would ask us, 'Are you working here?' 'Yes, we run the space.' Then we'd start a conversation about what we did and so on. We were very approachable. This worked really well because the space was beautiful, and we tried to make each Emergency Party feel unique.

We came up with the idea of inviting artists to create a video projection for each event. Working with video actually makes the most sense when you don't have much money. We weren’t thinking, 'Who do we want to reach?' It was more a case of, 'Who's here?' Who can play this weekend? Who can do a projection? Great, let's go.'

Micky

It sounds very reactive, also a theme of our conversation today. We talked a lot about running the space; what’s one practical lesson or piece of advice you’d share with someone starting a cultural space?

Elza

Just don’t count on any funding.

Leon

Yes, don't rely on funding; rely on your network of colleagues and friends instead. Also, don’t be afraid to fail, because then something else will happen. You can gain a lot of experience, make friends and connections, and expand your network.

Micky

The most horrible thing is that you close. I mean, you’ve been through that process, and you’re also doing okay. So what’s next?

Elza

It was a relief when we closed. It was very calming. I mean, it was sad; I cried a lot. But after two days, it felt like there was more space in my brain. It was like a reboot, and it was beautiful. I also felt freer because maintaining a space involves a lot of invisible care work, such as cleaning, doing the bar and communicating with people and so on.

Now I have much more time to think about projects and conduct in-depth research. And we still have this platform, Forum Neun. It's not a physical space at the moment, but it's still a network and platform that we'll use for our collaborative curatorial projects.

Micky

And the next project, when does it start?

Elza

The exhibition Shifting Grounds opens at Cinémathèque on 17 October. It was supposed to be funded by the city, but unfortunately, all the funding was cut. But thanks to the efforts of our cooperation partners at Festival Politik im Freien Theater and Stiftung Friedliche Revolution, who did their utmost to make this project happen, we secured alternative funding. Without this cooperation, the project would have been cancelled.

Micky

I think we’re in a transition: the past ten years had a lot of city-funded projects and money for culture and off-spaces, but now that’s being cut. And it happened very suddenly. It seems like everyone is in a fog of hope that it’ll come back, that it’s just a temporary thing. How do you feel about the future in Leipzig and the cultural funding situation?

Elza

We travel to Ukraine and work there really often, and I think we’ve both been living in a different reality for a while. I don’t believe that state funding will improve in the next few months or years. We just need to prepare and consider how culture can manifest itself in different formats. What does it mean to 'survive', and what role can an arts institution take in times like these?

Micky

I often ask in these conversations about the feeling in Leipzig, what’s missing, or what could make Leipzig a better place to create spaces and events? And you’ve mentioned this feeling of missing a real scene here. I think that’s very important for the future: to survive, we need to cultivate more community between projects and between spaces.

Leon

I agree. I think there is a scene, but not really a network within it. There's the LEICO map now, for example. I'm not convinced that it will make much of a difference in terms of it actually feeling like there is a scene.

Micky

This summer when the news about the funding cuts came out, you (Forum Neun) and Bistro21 were the only ones who really made a public statement, out of over 30 spaces that had their funding completely cut for the rest of the year. I bet people reading this will be like, “I didn’t even know that happened.”

Elza

We made this statement even though we had already closed before the cuts were implemented. It was crazy because everyone received the email from the Kulturamt on the day that Forum Neun closed. I was standing there giving the closing speech. And I told the story that we always joked that we were an art space of the future.

I have a feeling that we are always one step ahead. For example, Ukraine has never had proper state funding for culture and art. This has led to a great deal of inequality within the scene, and probably resulted in many unrealised works and other problems. Nevertheless, artists and cultural workers continue to do their job under these precarious circumstances. Leon

The way the community works is completely different there. It’s such a different environment. It feels like everyone knows each other and supports each other more. It's a really open network and feels like an underground scene. In Odesa, the scene is smaller but really warm and connected. This inspired our work with Forum Neun: creating a space with that same sense of warmth. I wish it were a bit more like that here in Leipzig.

Elza

I think it's rooted in historical circumstances. In order to survive, you have to build horizontal relationships.

Leon

It’s even more striking to witness how Ukrainian artists continue their work despite everything. Despite the war or the lack of funding, they carry on regardless. It's very inspiring. There’s always a reason to carry on, but you also have to find ways to resist and adapt simultaneously. There are so many things we can’t directly influence, but it’s important to stay capable of acting, rather than waiting for better times or dreaming about how things used to be.

Elza

The lesson we both learned from the Ukrainian context is that culture is not irrelevant – it's essential.

In Leipzig, I think many people need to acknowledge our current political and social situation and stop pretending it will get better. This isn't pessimism; it's about acknowledging reality and facing up to it. It's difficult, but that's the way it is. There’s a lot of hope, but it’s important to see the bigger picture and understand that we’re all connected to other events and that we’re all part of a vast global network. We're just part of it.

Micky

I think bringing international connections to Leipzig is also critical, crossing borders. The scope still feels narrow here. We need to widen the lens of what’s possible for Leipzig. It could actually help bring the community together, and in times of crisis, that’s when it happens somehow. I also think about the stages of grief, and we’re in the first few stages, just in disbelief.

Elza

It's an interesting perspective to view it through the stages of grief.

Micky

I think it’s hard for a lot of people to accept, because the cultural funding has been running smoothly for a long time. Maybe that also drives the laid-back attitude.

Leon

Actually, I think it's best to see this as an opportunity to rethink established systems and methods. I felt like some things within the scene were stuck in a routine. Perhaps something new needs to happen.

I’m not saying that artists have a duty to society, but they can play a role by engaging with and observing our time and society. I think artists and curators should really observe what's happening around them. Also understanding the role of an off-space, what they can contribute to the situation so they don't become redundant or self-replicating. What can you provide for your community? What can an off-space offer that an institution cannot?

To me, a good art space is about more than just white walls and regular exhibitions by local artists. I want them to be places of hospitality and community, where I can discover new formats and works by artists I did not know before. But I think off-spaces, being more flexible than institutions, could be more reactive. From a personal and subjective perspective, I feel there is too much empty, formal art in Leipzig that does not engage with topics relevant to our time.

Elza

Sometimes I get the impression that some of Leipzig's off-space exhibitions have become just places to have a beer with friends. They somehow do not give me the feeling that it is about a deep engagement with art. Perhaps for the artists exhibiting there, it's a good platform to experiment, but this is what I mean when I say the discursive field is missing for me. Do we discuss exhibitions in off-spaces? Do we talk about what we see there? Do we offer criticism?

I feel similarly about our upcoming exhibition, 'Shifting Grounds'. I really hope we have some discussions about the show, and I would welcome any feedback, whether positive or negative.

Leon

I agree about the lack of discourse surrounding exhibitions here, and I believe that some constructive criticism would be very productive for Leipzig's art scene. I would love to see proper articles and reviews of Leipzig's exhibitions. I mean, we're not the only ones who aren't extremely happy with the cultural landscape in this city.

Elza

Yes, that's exactly what's been missing.

When we closed Forum Neun, we asked ourselves: what does it mean not to have a space anymore? Can we use public spaces? Can we be even more performative? How do we want to collaborate in the future?

When we started curating, I got so fed up with traditional formats and the way I thought exhibitions should look. The space and the circumstances pushed us to think of new formats. Now, I’m really interested in what it means to not have a physical space and how you can work with that.

Micky

I’m really looking forward to what you make at Cinémathèque in October.

Elza

We are also very excited! Shifting Grounds is a collaboration between Forum Neun, Revolutionale and the Festival Politik im Freien Theater, which is being held in Leipzig's theatres this year. We were both already working on topics related to the environment in the context of war, which is why the show at Cinématèque will focus on landscapes in the context of global politics.

In essence, we are combining media-theoretical concepts of the before-and-after image with artistic, non-didactic perspectives on the environment, as well as observations of landscapes. . We wanted to create a fragmented narrative by combining the selected works, while avoiding the didactic tone typically associated with exhibitions about the environment or climate change. Instead, we tried to take a more somatic approach to these topics. The show will feature video works only, so it's recommended bringing some time!

Micky

I will definitely do that. Thank you both for this inspiring conversation. I’m really looking forward to Shifting Grounds on 17 October at Cinémathèque. Let’s gather there and keep this discussion going.

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This conversation was hosted by eos archive's founder, Micky Arratoon. Micky looks forward to hosting more conversations with those who are shaping and redefining subculture in Leipzig, Berlin and beyond. Get in touch to say hello@eosarchive.app.